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	<title>Comments on: Browser Choice vs Font Rendering</title>
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	<link>http://www.thomasphinney.com/2009/12/browser-choice-vs-font-rendering/</link>
	<description>the Phinney-us Blog on Typography &#38; Text</description>
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		<title>By: John Daggett</title>
		<link>http://www.thomasphinney.com/2009/12/browser-choice-vs-font-rendering/comment-page-1/#comment-1102</link>
		<dc:creator>John Daggett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 08:43:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thomasphinney.com/?p=440#comment-1102</guid>
		<description>Ethan&#039;s comment is correct, by default IE renders content text (not UI text) with Cleartype enabled under XP.  Cleartype rendering is available under XP but it&#039;s not on by default so most users aren&#039;t aware of it.  There&#039;s an IE option to explicitly disable it (i.e. use grayscale rendering).

Mimicing IE behavior probably makes sense for other browsers, with an option to disable it for those users that don&#039;t like Cleartype rendering.

DirectWrite does a much better job of rendering small text (&lt;8px) and large text appears less jaggy due to better vertical anti-aliasing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ethan&#8217;s comment is correct, by default IE renders content text (not UI text) with Cleartype enabled under XP.  Cleartype rendering is available under XP but it&#8217;s not on by default so most users aren&#8217;t aware of it.  There&#8217;s an IE option to explicitly disable it (i.e. use grayscale rendering).</p>
<p>Mimicing IE behavior probably makes sense for other browsers, with an option to disable it for those users that don&#8217;t like Cleartype rendering.</p>
<p>DirectWrite does a much better job of rendering small text (&lt;8px) and large text appears less jaggy due to better vertical anti-aliasing.</p>
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		<title>By: JG</title>
		<link>http://www.thomasphinney.com/2009/12/browser-choice-vs-font-rendering/comment-page-1/#comment-1101</link>
		<dc:creator>JG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 21:07:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thomasphinney.com/?p=440#comment-1101</guid>
		<description>We have an application that renders graphics within a graphic viewer. When Font Smoothing is turned off, our rendering performance DRAMATICALLY improves. Why would that be? When font smoothing is on, an operation can take 60+ seconds. When it&#039;s off, the time reduces to 6 or 7 seconds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We have an application that renders graphics within a graphic viewer. When Font Smoothing is turned off, our rendering performance DRAMATICALLY improves. Why would that be? When font smoothing is on, an operation can take 60+ seconds. When it&#8217;s off, the time reduces to 6 or 7 seconds.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil Ricketts</title>
		<link>http://www.thomasphinney.com/2009/12/browser-choice-vs-font-rendering/comment-page-1/#comment-1100</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Ricketts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 11:49:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thomasphinney.com/?p=440#comment-1100</guid>
		<description>Yes, this is true - I&#039;ve seen many people say otherwise.

It&#039;s a shame, however, that so many webfonts look like crap when viewed on Windows-based browsers. The common effect is that they look much lighter in weight than when viewed on a Mac browser.

For instance, I recently found a lovely alternate font for OSX&#039; standard font, Hoefler Text. It looked lovely when replaced on OSX browsers, but when using it in an @font-face include on Windows browser, it just looked too light and sharp. This is a shame, because the alternate font was mostly for Windows browser user&#039;s benefit when viewing the website in question. Because the alternate looked like crap, I just degraded to Palatino in the font-stack. 

So, because of these font-rendering issues, that I haven&#039;t quite figured out yet, in Windows, I&#039;m back to using web-safe. How pointless is that?

It seems like an axis of anti-aliasing is missing, or something. I read something about hinting this morning, perhaps that is it.

Of course, I could be missing something obvious, but I&#039;ve done a fair amount of playing around with these technologies and haven&#039;t got something I&#039;m totally happy with yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, this is true &#8211; I&#8217;ve seen many people say otherwise.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a shame, however, that so many webfonts look like crap when viewed on Windows-based browsers. The common effect is that they look much lighter in weight than when viewed on a Mac browser.</p>
<p>For instance, I recently found a lovely alternate font for OSX&#8217; standard font, Hoefler Text. It looked lovely when replaced on OSX browsers, but when using it in an @font-face include on Windows browser, it just looked too light and sharp. This is a shame, because the alternate font was mostly for Windows browser user&#8217;s benefit when viewing the website in question. Because the alternate looked like crap, I just degraded to Palatino in the font-stack. </p>
<p>So, because of these font-rendering issues, that I haven&#8217;t quite figured out yet, in Windows, I&#8217;m back to using web-safe. How pointless is that?</p>
<p>It seems like an axis of anti-aliasing is missing, or something. I read something about hinting this morning, perhaps that is it.</p>
<p>Of course, I could be missing something obvious, but I&#8217;ve done a fair amount of playing around with these technologies and haven&#8217;t got something I&#8217;m totally happy with yet.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Rutter</title>
		<link>http://www.thomasphinney.com/2009/12/browser-choice-vs-font-rendering/comment-page-1/#comment-1099</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Rutter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 16:10:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thomasphinney.com/?p=440#comment-1099</guid>
		<description>&quot;you seem to be saying that there is something that “expert” font hosting companies can do about the way fonts render.&quot;

Actually there is indirectly. If we assume that the fonts provided to font hosting companies by foundries are the most up-to-date versions, Cleartype hinted, and generally the best available for rendering on screen, then it is these fonts which will be used to render text and not older poorly hinted versions.

Thus font hosting companies offer the possibility of ensuring that the best rendering fonts are used because they can always provide the latest version to browsers

&lt;em&gt;[Agreed that this could help. - T]&lt;/em&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;you seem to be saying that there is something that “expert” font hosting companies can do about the way fonts render.&#8221;</p>
<p>Actually there is indirectly. If we assume that the fonts provided to font hosting companies by foundries are the most up-to-date versions, Cleartype hinted, and generally the best available for rendering on screen, then it is these fonts which will be used to render text and not older poorly hinted versions.</p>
<p>Thus font hosting companies offer the possibility of ensuring that the best rendering fonts are used because they can always provide the latest version to browsers</p>
<p><em>[Agreed that this could help. - T]</em></p>
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		<title>By: Gerrit</title>
		<link>http://www.thomasphinney.com/2009/12/browser-choice-vs-font-rendering/comment-page-1/#comment-1097</link>
		<dc:creator>Gerrit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jan 2010 18:47:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thomasphinney.com/?p=440#comment-1097</guid>
		<description>When IE7 came out in 2007, I was quite happy, because while upgrading from IE6 to IE7 on WinXP, you could choose between ClearType and standard smoothing. ClearType was the default option, though, and it only affected IE7, not the rest of the system. You could assume that 90+ percent of IE7 users would have ClearType activated, even if they never would bother to touch the system-wide ClearType settings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When IE7 came out in 2007, I was quite happy, because while upgrading from IE6 to IE7 on WinXP, you could choose between ClearType and standard smoothing. ClearType was the default option, though, and it only affected IE7, not the rest of the system. You could assume that 90+ percent of IE7 users would have ClearType activated, even if they never would bother to touch the system-wide ClearType settings.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Fink</title>
		<link>http://www.thomasphinney.com/2009/12/browser-choice-vs-font-rendering/comment-page-1/#comment-1094</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Fink</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Dec 2009 22:03:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thomasphinney.com/?p=440#comment-1094</guid>
		<description>@roger black who postulates:

&quot;The solution is for sites to outsource targeted font serving like they do Google ads. Both are complicated distribution problems, with many variables that are frequently updated&quot;

If I am correctly understanding you, you seem to be saying that there is something that &quot;expert&quot; font hosting companies can do about the way fonts render.
On what evidence? Frankly, this makes no sense at all. Font serving firms have no more power to make fonts look good in various browsers and platforms than does any competent web designer or developer. And if they were to employ some hack that, somehow, magically made a font look good, it would quickly become known and copied by all.

Ugly, beautiful - it&#039;s all beside the point. The web grew like a weed when we were all squinting in the glare of CRT screens waiting and waiting for pages to download over dial-up connections. Ah, the days when every font looked like crap!
A few ragged edges isn&#039;t going to stop anybody who wants to set themselves apart typographically.

The uglier it is, the better I like it, actually. And if the past is any guide, I&#039;m in the majority. Font-linking promises a whole new wave of ghastly fonts that will probably bring another half a billion people online in just a few years.

Now, if you&#039;ll excuse me, I really must &quot;retreat back into my cave&quot; for the night, the sun is hanging low in the sky.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://readableweb.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Rich&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@roger black who postulates:</p>
<p>&#8220;The solution is for sites to outsource targeted font serving like they do Google ads. Both are complicated distribution problems, with many variables that are frequently updated&#8221;</p>
<p>If I am correctly understanding you, you seem to be saying that there is something that &#8220;expert&#8221; font hosting companies can do about the way fonts render.<br />
On what evidence? Frankly, this makes no sense at all. Font serving firms have no more power to make fonts look good in various browsers and platforms than does any competent web designer or developer. And if they were to employ some hack that, somehow, magically made a font look good, it would quickly become known and copied by all.</p>
<p>Ugly, beautiful &#8211; it&#8217;s all beside the point. The web grew like a weed when we were all squinting in the glare of CRT screens waiting and waiting for pages to download over dial-up connections. Ah, the days when every font looked like crap!<br />
A few ragged edges isn&#8217;t going to stop anybody who wants to set themselves apart typographically.</p>
<p>The uglier it is, the better I like it, actually. And if the past is any guide, I&#8217;m in the majority. Font-linking promises a whole new wave of ghastly fonts that will probably bring another half a billion people online in just a few years.</p>
<p>Now, if you&#8217;ll excuse me, I really must &#8220;retreat back into my cave&#8221; for the night, the sun is hanging low in the sky.</p>
<p><a href="http://readableweb.com" rel="nofollow">Rich</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.thomasphinney.com/2009/12/browser-choice-vs-font-rendering/comment-page-1/#comment-1092</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:24:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thomasphinney.com/?p=440#comment-1092</guid>
		<description>In IE7, Cleartype can be disabled in the internet settings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In IE7, Cleartype can be disabled in the internet settings.</p>
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		<title>By: Art Thompson</title>
		<link>http://www.thomasphinney.com/2009/12/browser-choice-vs-font-rendering/comment-page-1/#comment-1090</link>
		<dc:creator>Art Thompson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 22:32:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thomasphinney.com/?p=440#comment-1090</guid>
		<description>As someone who is less than thrilled with the execution of, but excited to no end with the possibilities of web typography I found your explanation of the current machinery and where it&#039;s potentially headed comforting. I&#039;m playing with TypeKit on a few websites with fairly good results, though I&#039;ve been very conservative with my font choices. As for the delivery model, I do have faith in the cloud...for now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As someone who is less than thrilled with the execution of, but excited to no end with the possibilities of web typography I found your explanation of the current machinery and where it&#8217;s potentially headed comforting. I&#8217;m playing with TypeKit on a few websites with fairly good results, though I&#8217;ve been very conservative with my font choices. As for the delivery model, I do have faith in the cloud&#8230;for now.</p>
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		<title>By: Roger Black</title>
		<link>http://www.thomasphinney.com/2009/12/browser-choice-vs-font-rendering/comment-page-1/#comment-1089</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Black</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 14:57:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thomasphinney.com/?p=440#comment-1089</guid>
		<description>Thanks! All good points. Happy to learn, for example, that IE 7+ switches rendering to Cleartype in XP. 

But most bloggers are tiptoeing around the increasing evidence that fonts that are *not* carefully hinted for Windows, look like crap when used below, say, 30 px. 

And worse if the user left ClearType off in XP/IE!

An encrusted cynic might say that people who use XP don&#039;t know what good type looks like, or don&#039;t care, so let&#039;s not worry about them. But the problem is that if a bunch of web fonts get out there without the right hints, the public could decide web fonts are a bad idea, and developers will retreat back into their caves.

One font does not fit all, and we&#039;re are going to have find a way to target the right font to each browser/OS combination. (Mobile browsers will soon accept web fonts, too.) Even if Microsoft and everyone else embrace the new WOFF format, even if we abandon the hapless XP clients, we&#039;ll have to deal for years with the trailing installed base of ClearType and EOT.

The solution is for sites to outsource targeted font serving like they do Google ads. Both are complicated distribution problems, with many variables that are frequently updated. 

We have the chance to get this problem solved. If we don&#039;t, web sites may have to wait another 15 years to get a choice of typefaces.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks! All good points. Happy to learn, for example, that IE 7+ switches rendering to Cleartype in XP. </p>
<p>But most bloggers are tiptoeing around the increasing evidence that fonts that are *not* carefully hinted for Windows, look like crap when used below, say, 30 px. </p>
<p>And worse if the user left ClearType off in XP/IE!</p>
<p>An encrusted cynic might say that people who use XP don&#8217;t know what good type looks like, or don&#8217;t care, so let&#8217;s not worry about them. But the problem is that if a bunch of web fonts get out there without the right hints, the public could decide web fonts are a bad idea, and developers will retreat back into their caves.</p>
<p>One font does not fit all, and we&#8217;re are going to have find a way to target the right font to each browser/OS combination. (Mobile browsers will soon accept web fonts, too.) Even if Microsoft and everyone else embrace the new WOFF format, even if we abandon the hapless XP clients, we&#8217;ll have to deal for years with the trailing installed base of ClearType and EOT.</p>
<p>The solution is for sites to outsource targeted font serving like they do Google ads. Both are complicated distribution problems, with many variables that are frequently updated. </p>
<p>We have the chance to get this problem solved. If we don&#8217;t, web sites may have to wait another 15 years to get a choice of typefaces.</p>
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		<title>By: Ethan Dunham</title>
		<link>http://www.thomasphinney.com/2009/12/browser-choice-vs-font-rendering/comment-page-1/#comment-1088</link>
		<dc:creator>Ethan Dunham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 12:44:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thomasphinney.com/?p=440#comment-1088</guid>
		<description>@Thomas - I just tested it in XP and IE7 renders with clearType even when it is off system-wide. Firefox on the other hand takes on the system settings as you describe.

&lt;i&gt;[That&#039;s... interesting, and potentially worrisome to the general principle. I had my info on that point from Microsoft fonts program manager Si Daniels. I tested it myself in Vista with IE8. In that combination, I verified that IE simply responds to the system setting. Mind you, it can sometimes get temporarily confused, which is usually addressed by reloading the page or restarting IE. - T]&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Thomas &#8211; I just tested it in XP and IE7 renders with clearType even when it is off system-wide. Firefox on the other hand takes on the system settings as you describe.</p>
<p><i>[That's... interesting, and potentially worrisome to the general principle. I had my info on that point from Microsoft fonts program manager Si Daniels. I tested it myself in Vista with IE8. In that combination, I verified that IE simply responds to the system setting. Mind you, it can sometimes get temporarily confused, which is usually addressed by reloading the page or restarting IE. - T]</i></p>
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